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  1. #1
    Senior Coder missing-score's Avatar
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    IE vs. Alternative Browser vs. Free Choice

    This thread is meant to be a continuation of off-topic discussion from here.

    Rather than summarize everything (its quite hard, as many different points have been made), I'm going to jump straight in and continue the discussion from here:

    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine
    Technically, anything but IE is right. Esthetically, it's like asking which movie or book is best.
    When I began using computers around 7 years ago, I had no idea what the internet was, and I could just about get around Windows. Once we got the internet, I still had very little understanding of it for a long while, however, I then started to get into web development on a basic level and as time went on became more advanced with what I did.

    I remember trying out a much earlier Mozilla version, and also a Netscape version. I hated using Mozilla, and I hated using Netscape. I stuck with IE for a long while. It's not like I didn't give the browsers a try. I used Mozilla for a week to give myself time to get adjusted, and I just didn't like it. I knew Mozilla was more secure, and I had got infected from adware via. IE before as well, but I kept using IE becuase I really didn't like Mozilla.

    Now of course, I really like Firefox so I don't have a need to use IE at the moment. I've also tried Opera, which I really don't like. If Opera released a version of their browser that I prefered to Firefox, I would switch, and then if Microsoft released a version of IE I prefered, I would switch again. Plain and simple.

    The majority of people wont care about whether the browser is technically better. Most people will care about what they like. As I said in the previous thread, I know people who have tried alternatives and stick with IE and I also know people who have tried alternatives and stopped using IE. If I remember rightly, WA, The owner of this forum, uses both browsers regularly.

    To summarise, I wouldn't ever like to attempt to block out some browsers from my site, becuase I know first hand that people using IE, Older browsers etc. May be doing so for a reason (they like the browser best, their system cannot handle the upgrade etc.), and blocking them out is extremely harsh.

  • #2
    Regular Coder DELOCH's Avatar
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    correction:

    IE does not include itself in the old browser category, IE 4 and below does but 6 and 7 are both new

    also, you missed out the real reasons: ActiveX usage, VBScript usage, VML usage, speed, and of course the support for almost everything(except for XHTML.xml(cant handle the doctype))

    plus blocking people is not harsh, it is idiot-like

    80% of people use Internet Explorer like me, none of them care whether FX is better, or anything, they might use FX sometimes and such

    but everyone in toronto school uses Internet Explorer, they could not care less whether FX is better or anything...

    FX is not better, it is close to IE but not beating yet because it does not support technologies many VB developers use

    ActiveX, Vbscript, and VML(who uses this anyways?)

  • #3
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    Just out of curiousity, DELOCH, do you even know what you're writing from post to post? I think you've contradicted your self at least a dozen times throughout this and the previous thread. ActiveX is secure, then it's not, then it is?

    And I've got to say, I love this line...

    FX is not better, it is close to IE but not beating yet because it does not support technologies many VB developers use
    Really? no! You're kidding! FF doesn't support VB? Why would I want to use a browser that supports Virus Blaster code? That statement is about as idiotic as saying "Most windows developers don't like Linux because it doesn't support .Net. Well, d'uh. Windows doesn't support MacOSX, nor *nix apps either. IE doesn't support coding standards, is a bloated codebase that is insecure, and survives today only because of Microsofts monopolistic tactics in the late 90s and today. If there was NO browser installed on new PCs, I can guarantee you FF / Opera would have much higher numbers (probably over 50% between the 2 of them). IE wouldn't survive in a competitive marketplace.

    Personally, I use Firefox out of preference and necessity. I develop primarily on Linux and as such, can't use IE (thank GOD!). When I'm on a Windows box the ONLY reason I use IE is for testing. And that's only when I don't feel like using browsercam.

  • #4
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    In my opinion the web browser is one of the most commonly used applications used by anyone who has internet access. From a users perspective it doesn't matter how many technologies a browser supports or how well it keeps to web standards. The more valuable thing is the ease of use/ergonomy or simply put that the program doesn't annoy you too much. As a user I won't care too much if some site is displayed differently than the author intended (I wouldn't even know if it is displayed incorrectly). Telling users to switch to another program to view some site isn't really solving the problem. If you do care about how your site looks in some browser it should be your duty to fix it.
    I just might add that I don't believe that a browser may be a big security hole. I was using IE with success for a long time and I didn't catch ad-ware or things like that. I think it has a lot more to do with the user than the program itself. (Then again I may just be magical as I don't get any viruses and I'm not using any security software like firewalls or anti-viruses...)
    I'm not sure if this was any help, but I hope it didn't make you stupider.

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  • #5
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    IE does not include itself in the old browser category, IE 4 and below does but 6 and 7 are both new
    Wrong. IE6 has not been updated, except for security, since 2001. IE7 only fixes non-standards compliance bugs that were in IE6 along with two new additions.
    you missed out the real reasons: ActiveX usage, VBScript usage, VML usage, speed, and of course the support for almost everything(except for XHTML.xml(cant handle the doctype))
    Wrong again. ActiveX is a known security fault.
    What if you don't use VBScript?
    I don't recall but can IE properly handle SVG?
    IE is NOT faster than other browsers. It's only advantage is in startup because it is built into the OS.
    Support for everything else? NOT xhtml and not just because of the doctype. IE has NO recognition software for XHTML. IE has incomplete support for the DOM, CSS, all of HTML, and what support it has is buggy. Even Microsoft says this. Are you aware of the IEBlog?

    After seeing some of your code on other posts, I am perfectly aware of your lack of experience and knowledge in web programming so gain some of both before you make comments like this.

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    I just might add that I don't believe that a browser may be a big security hole.
    I think it has a lot more to do with the user than the program itself.
    Oh, so it's OUR fault. No. Walking in dark alleys may get you mugged but walking in a nice neighborhood and getting mugged is not your fault. It's not always the browsers fault either.

    I don't get viruses either but there is that one off chance I'll stumble into a trusted but infected site. That has happened.
    Last edited by drhowarddrfine; 06-30-2006 at 03:17 PM.

  • #7
    Senior Coder gsnedders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine
    IE7 only fixes non-standards compliance bugs that were in IE6 along with two new additions.
    • All CSS2.1 selectors
    • Some CSS3 selectors
    • min/max-width/height

    Woops… More than two…
    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine
    IE has incomplete support for the DOM, CSS, all of HTML, and what support it has is buggy.
    That can be said for any browser, not just IE.

  • #8
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    Senior Coder jkd's Avatar
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    Just a note, even the IE7 user-agent string starts off with "Mozilla/4.0" - identifying itself effectively as a 4th generation browser. Opera (by default now), Firefox, and Safari all have Mozilla/5.0 in their user-agent string, as a more accurate representation of their abilities as a user-agent.

  • #9
    Regular Coder ralph l mayo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarl314
    "Most windows developers don't like Linux because it doesn't support .Net. Well, d'uh.
    Linux supports .NET :] Don't know why you'd do that to a perfectly good linux install though.

    /derail

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    That can be said for any browser, not just IE.
    Wrong. Go to my "eight years" link below and compare IE to the other browsers. There is NO comparison. IE is light years behind every other browser.

  • #11
    Senior Coder gsnedders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine
    Wrong. Go to my "eight years" link below and compare IE to the other browsers. There is NO comparison. IE is light years behind every other browser.
    Right. So let's take a look at Gecko… No support for CSS2's text-shadow. There's one example of something not being supported.

    No browser is perfect. No browser supports everything. No browser is bug free.

  • #12
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    Well, I can argue that standards-compliance DOES matter to end users -- they just don't know it. The more standards-compliant their browser is (and really all browsers are), the easier development is for front-end developers like me, so that we have the time to focus on features of websites or webapps that are more user-centered.

    Also as a front-end developer, I can tell you that debugging in IE sucks. Firefox is better at that out-of-the-box with the DOM inspector and the JavaScript console. Throw in the Firebug and Web Developer Toolbar extensions, and I can do anything.

    Yes the IE7 team did fix several standards-compliance bugs in their CSS support. Not nearly all of them, but several of the most pressing ones. It's all been documented at the IE Blog.

    And I think that Error 404 was misunderstood. All he's saying is that no browser is perfect -- and he's right. Some are better than others (Firefox is superior in many ways over IE), but perfection has not yet been achieved by anyone.

    Nobody who is serious about web development relies on ActiveX, VBScript, or VML, and they certainly don't build for IE-only. People who are proud of their IE-only app are like monkeys who are proud of their ability to peel a banana. They've shown that an IE-only world is all they see, and they're essentially still living in the dark ages of the web. The only people using these archaic technologies are people who haven't taken the time to trade-up to more cross-browser, cross-platform technologies. It can also be argued that the security issues with ActiveX far outweigh any benefit they may bring.

    Either way, I can't help but feel sorry for people who are hard-core IE. If you use it because you prefer it, that's perfectly fine. But don't say it's because you "have 100,000 reasons to stick to IE" because that's simply ludicrous.
    Last edited by Skyzyx; 06-30-2006 at 10:48 PM.

  • #13
    Supreme Master coder! _Aerospace_Eng_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyzyx
    Well, I can argue that standards-compliance DOES matter to end users -- they just don't know it. The more standards-compliant their browser is (and really all browsers are), the easier development is for front-end developers like me, so that we have the time to focus on features of websites or webapps that are more user-centered.

    Also as a front-end developer, I can tell you that debugging in IE sucks. Firefox is better at that out-of-the-box with the DOM inspector and the JavaScript console. Throw in the Firebug and Web Developer Toolbar extensions, and I can do anything.

    Yes the IE7 team did fix several standards-compliance bugs in their CSS support. Not nearly all of them, but several of the most pressing ones. It's all been documented at the IE Blog.

    And I think that Error 404 was misunderstood. All he's saying is that no browser is perfect -- and he's right. Some are better than others (Firefox is superior in many ways over IE), but perfection has not yet been achieved by anyone.

    Nobody who is serious about web development relies on ActiveX, VBScript, or VML, and they certainly don't build for IE-only. People who are proud of their IE-only app are like monkeys who are proud of their ability to peel a banana. They've shown that an IE-only world is all they see, and they're essentially still living in the dark ages of the web. The only people using these archaic technologies are people who haven't taken the time to trade-up to more cross-browser, cross-platform technologies. It can also be argued that the security issues with ActiveX far outweigh any benefit they may bring.

    Either way, I can't help but feel sorry for people who are hard-core IE. If you use it because you prefer it, that's perfectly fine. But don't say it's because you "have 100,000 reasons to stick to IE" because that's simply ludicrous.
    Well said.
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  • #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyzyx
    Well, I can argue that standards-compliance DOES matter to end users -- they just don't know it. The more standards-compliant their browser is (and really all browsers are), the easier development is for front-end developers like me, so that we have the time to focus on features of websites or webapps that are more user-centered.
    You just said how much standard compliance matters to the developers and not the users.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyzyx
    Either way, I can't help but feel sorry for people who are hard-core IE. If you use it because you prefer it, that's perfectly fine. But don't say it's because you "have 100,000 reasons to stick to IE" because that's simply ludicrous.
    Having thousands of reasons is like having no real reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine
    Oh, so it's OUR fault.
    I still wonder who the "we" are. If the "we" should stand for those who use web browsers (that would include me) then I would restrain myself from doing that as you are in no position to speak in my name (and probably many others).
    I'm not sure if this was any help, but I hope it didn't make you stupider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marek_mar
    You just said how much standard compliance matters to the developers and not the users.
    My point is that "standards-compliance" as a concept is only valuable to developers. But the part that IS valuable to end-users are the benefits of web standards.

    * Faster loading pages (due to less code)
    * More responsive pages (due to less complicated code)
    * (Potentially) more/better features (due to the developer having more time to work on them).
    * Other stuff I can't think of right now.

    Web standards are better for both developers and end-users... only the developers are aware of them and end-users aren't.


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