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  1. #1
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    Damn Flash straight to hell...

    Unbelievable...

    Almost through completing a 'two-semester long' course in HTML/DHTML/Java...

    But, half of that time was wasted on 'Photoshop', Image Ready, and now DreamWeaver and Flash... (!?) - Wysiwyg?

    Apparently the itinerary was set up as a crash=course for newbies to the world 1's and 0's, rather than the world of HyperThread and algorithm's...

    What is really ticking me off though... and won't leggo my ego??
    I have been 'toying' with Flash for a week now - and haven't gotten 'anywhere' in terms of progress [other than figuring out where I could find some features on the menu dropdown!]

    I wonder... except for graphics geared towards Fancy Marketing, 'what' can Flash do that you can't do in DHTML!? Most people are not capable of viewing Flash Animations anyways - or have errors and/or compatability issues with Macromedia and Windows... !?

    (I 'do' have one link that supersedes all others in the artistic arena(s)... But I see 'no' correlation between any Macromedia products and 'this site!?'...)

  • #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilaw
    Unbelievable...

    Almost through completing a 'two-semester long' course in HTML/DHTML/Java...

    But, half of that time was wasted on 'Photoshop', Image Ready, and now DreamWeaver and Flash... (!?) - Wysiwyg?

    Apparently the itinerary was set up as a crash=course for newbies to the world 1's and 0's, rather than the world of HyperThread and algorithm's...

    What is really ticking me off though... and won't leggo my ego??
    I have been 'toying' with Flash for a week now - and haven't gotten 'anywhere' in terms of progress [other than figuring out where I could find some features on the menu dropdown!]

    I wonder... except for graphics geared towards Fancy Marketing, 'what' can Flash do that you can't do in DHTML!? Most people are not capable of viewing Flash Animations anyways - or have errors and/or compatability issues with Macromedia and Windows... !?

    (I 'do' have one link that supersedes all others in the artistic arena(s)... But I see 'no' correlation between any Macromedia products and 'this site!?'...)
    Flash can do much more advanced animations than DHTML -- but instead of thinking of it for just web browser; I often use it as an alternative movie for presentations other than powerpoint which can be lame.
    // Art is what you can get away with. <-- Andy Warhol
    ...:.:::: bradyjfrey.com : htmldog : ::::.:...

  • #3
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    Pretty tacit there...

    I was compelled to commit myself to learning Flash for [basically] the same reasons!
    "Well? If and/or when the time comes, it's either this or 'PowerPoint!'... "

    As for 'Photoshop' and ImageReady... I know that there are 'tons' of Graphics Software that uses less scripts and codes than Adobe when making hot-spots, roll-overs... etc.

    I like Jasc and AnimationshipPro... (Although I 'hate' Preset animations!)

    The layering capabilities and precision could easily surpass Photoshop's...

    (Although, I have most 'all' of them installed... )

  • #4
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    Nah screw Flash - learn SVG instead - it can do everything that Flash can do, but it's markup based with a completely open DOM. You don't need proprietary software to make it, you don't need to learn a proprietary scripting language to add interactivity, and it's properly accessible because it's real markup, not binary data.
    "Why bother with accessibility? ... Because deep down you know that the web is attractive to people who aren't exactly like you." - Joe Clark

  • #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilaw
    I was compelled to commit myself to learning Flash for [basically] the same reasons!
    "Well? If and/or when the time comes, it's either this or 'PowerPoint!'... "

    As for 'Photoshop' and ImageReady... I know that there are 'tons' of Graphics Software that uses less scripts and codes than Adobe when making hot-spots, roll-overs... etc.

    I like Jasc and AnimationshipPro... (Although I 'hate' Preset animations!)

    The layering capabilities and precision could easily surpass Photoshop's...

    (Although, I have most 'all' of them installed... )
    Well, we all know that WYSI editors make horrid code -- that's why there comes a point when we all de-evolve and go back to hand coding

    Regardless of their code errors, Photoshop has an ecstatic amount of features that those other programs don't do. I don't think we can fully compare them program to program.
    // Art is what you can get away with. <-- Andy Warhol
    ...:.:::: bradyjfrey.com : htmldog : ::::.:...

  • #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by brothercake
    Nah screw Flash - learn SVG instead - it can do everything that Flash can do...
    While I agree with the rest of the statement, that sentance tweaks me...
    So is SVG a "thick-client" too? (capable of decent/reliable client side processing)
    Can SVG send and receive server requests without a page refresh?
    Can SVG facilitate multi-stream audio+video conferencing with an "all members manipulable" app. running in the middle aswell?
    Can SVG also replace Director/Shockwave as far as CD distribution? (eg: Macromedia MX Suite's initial installation app. is Flash, so are many other similar apps.)

    I'm not trying to be-little you, brothercake, I simply have no knowledge of SVG's capabilities so I thought I'd take this chance to quiz you about the real power of Flash and the possibility of SVG filling all those roles.

    Oh, and about Flash's proprietry language..would it make you feel better if you thought of it as another twisted and malformed child of javascript?
    Didn't think so..
    Last edited by mindlessLemming; 05-26-2004 at 12:44 PM.

    I take no responsibility for the above nonsense.


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  • #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilaw
    I wonder... except for graphics geared towards Fancy Marketing, 'what' can Flash do that you can't do in DHTML!? Most people are not capable of viewing Flash Animations anyways - or have errors and/or compatability issues with Macromedia and Windows... !?
    Unbelievable... someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

    if you take the time to read the manual and go throught th built in tutoirlas you would find out why flash is so good.

    as for FLASH vs. DHTML:
    -Flash is completly crossbrowser (IE comes with it, and in mozzila at least, you just need to install the plugin which even the biggest technophobe could do) where as DHTML needs differnt code for differnt browsers which takes time that you could be using making better flash animations.

    -Flash can import JPEG, MP3, AVI, WAV, BMP... files for use in it

    -Flash can be used with XML, PHP and its own propriety server software for server side apps

    -Flash scripts are still quite small in size, and in the worst of cases, you can use a preloader

    as for photoshop, could you suggest a better Graphics Program?

    if you choose a rubbish course, go rant somewhere else
    photoshop too expensive? use the GIMP! www.gimp.org

  • #8
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    The capabilities of flash are the features of a piece of software.

    The capabilities of SVG go way beyond their own vocabulary - they draw on the methods of wider technologies - XML and the DOM.

    So this means that anything which is possible with client-side scripting, or client-server interaction, is possible with SVG as the visual interface.
    Quote Originally Posted by mindlessLemming
    So is SVG a "thick-client" too? (capable of decent/reliable client side processing)
    Yes - in fact using the Adobe plugin you get better DOM support in IE. Many of the browser inconsistencies are wiped out because the SVG DOM uses standard methods which are implemented in the plugin, rather than relying solely on the browser's own scripting engine. The end result is a javascript-based scripting model without the pain of client ambiguity.
    Quote Originally Posted by mindlessLemming
    Can SVG send and receive server requests without a page refresh?
    You can do this by creating elements that make server requests, or using XML methods to retrieve data from the server (eg, XPointer references).
    Quote Originally Posted by mindlessLemming
    Can SVG facilitate multi-stream audio+video conferencing with an "all members manipulable" app. running in the middle aswell?
    How so - you mean an SVG-based interface to embedded streaming video? yeah it could do that - SVG is just XML - anything where you can use an XHTML interface you could replace that with SVG.
    Quote Originally Posted by mindlessLemming
    Can SVG also replace Director/Shockwave as far as CD distribution? (eg: Macromedia MX Suite's initial installation app. is Flash, so are many other similar apps.)
    Not sure what you mean ..?
    Quote Originally Posted by mindlessLemming
    Oh, and about Flash's proprietry language..would it make you feel better if you thought of it as another twisted and malformed child of javascript?
    Didn't think so..
    No Is actionscript publically extensible? Can you do OO scripting and method prototyping with it? Is knowledge of it useful to other applications?

    So back at you mate - can Flash even come close to the capabilities of SVG:

    - is it accessible?
    - can it be indexed and searched?
    - can you generate it on the server with PHP, ASP or any server side process at all, without any special extensions?
    - can you do on-the-fly transforms between graphics and plain text?
    - do you have a choice of built-in animation syntax (SMIL), or the option of doing all animation through custom scripting?
    - can anyone make and distribute viewing or generation software for it?
    - can you edit movies in a plain-text editor?
    - does it have a DOM?
    - is it developed independently of the commercial interests of a single company?
    "Why bother with accessibility? ... Because deep down you know that the web is attractive to people who aren't exactly like you." - Joe Clark

  • #9
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    The proposed SVG 1.2 is actually designed to take on all of Flash's thick-client capabilities it seems.... rather stupid, implementing a socket interface in the SVG1.2 DOM when the spec isn't related at all.... but eh, however the WG wants to bury it....

  • #10
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    Sweet, I knew that was the fast way to a good run down on the power of SVG...hehehe, tricked ya
    Quote Originally Posted by brothercake
    Can you do OO scripting and [...] with it? Is knowledge of it useful to other applications?
    YES! AS2 allows some pretty decent classing and all classes can be stored as external .as files.
    Quote Originally Posted by brothercake
    - is it accessible?
    Beh, barely.
    - can it be indexed and searched?
    With great difficulty
    - can you generate it on the server with PHP, ASP or any server side process at all, without any special extensions?
    Absolutely. Not the entire .swf, but you can create/change a helluva lot at runtime. ColdFusion MX is the bomb for comunicating with Flash. (No suprise considering who makes them both)
    - can you do on-the-fly transforms between graphics and plain text?
    Huh? I doubt it.
    - do you have a choice of built-in animation syntax (SMIL), or the option of doing all animation through custom scripting?
    You have the option of traditioanl keyframing, tween based animation, script based animation, or programs such as Discreet Plasma or Swift3D which are full-featured 3D apps designed especially to outout .swf's.
    - can anyone make and distribute viewing or generation software for it?
    Viewing: no. Editing: Almost.
    - can you edit movies in a plain-text editor?
    Nup, only classes and resources (functions, etc.)
    - does it have a DOM?
    - is it developed independently of the commercial interests of a single company?
    LOL, no point me answering those two

    You do realise that I took the view of a hard line Flash user just to get more info about SVG, don't you?

    I take no responsibility for the above nonsense.


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  • #11
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    Fair play - I'll usually have a drink with the devil's advocate .. but I'll always try to talk him down

    Useful info then? I'm making a simple game in SVG at the mo if you're interested - demo at http://www.brothercake.com/games/robot/robot.svg (for which you'll need the Adobe SVG plugin if you don't already, and a browser other than mozilla)
    Last edited by brothercake; 05-27-2004 at 03:52 AM.
    "Why bother with accessibility? ... Because deep down you know that the web is attractive to people who aren't exactly like you." - Joe Clark

  • #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by brothercake
    I'm making a simple game in SVG at the mo if you're interested - demo at http://www.brothercake.com/games/robot/robot.svg (for which you'll need the Adobe SVG plugin if you don't already, and a browser other than mozilla)
    A browser other than Mozilla?? Good sir, do you know that of which you ask me with this request?!
    //starts up IE...

    COOL! Ok, me like very much
    First thing I did was hit the context menu...
    Zoom In/Out..looks good so far..
    and then; VIEW SOURCE!
    Very cool indeed.
    As someone who hates keyframing (and has spent the last year keyframing in Flash,3D Max, Maya, Combustion, Shake and Director) I can immedietly appreciate the open nature of SVG. The markup makes a lot of sense straight away if you have any knowledge of its 'sister technologies' and I can see straight away how feasible it would be generate masses of he stuff server-side.
    Thanks for that, Brothercake. Much appreciated

    I take no responsibility for the above nonsense.


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  • #13
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    what exactly is that game going to do? i just see a confused square going in circles.

  • #14
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    You see the red square, the checkerboard background, and nothing else?

    If that's so you're running an older version of the plugin. You can get the latest from http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html.
    "Why bother with accessibility? ... Because deep down you know that the web is attractive to people who aren't exactly like you." - Joe Clark

  • #15
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    I saw a maze like set of blobs with the square turning in circles and moving around a limited portion of the upper left corner. It didn't seem to respond to input. I realize it's a work in progress, it just didn't seem like there was any interactivity or anything. I wasn't sure if perhaps I just overlooked something.


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