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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneC
    Can you not pin applications to the Metro Start Menu the same as you did before?
    I am sure you can, but the start menu is not where it is supposed to be, it takes over my screen so I cant see what else I am doing, I have to WindowsC to see it or potentially scroll 27+13 inches to see it ~ and if I accidentally click a metro app ... wait, wait, fullscreen app ...grrrr

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneC
    The desktop in all its glory is still a big part of the operating system. Microsoft has communicated that by saying that the next office will run in Desktop Mode.
    ... so why Metro as unchangeable default ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneC
    This is an important point to remember. We (MSFT Engineers) are power users, coders, spreadsheet crunchers, and the like. Many of us (including me) have been using Windows 8 for months, and Microsoft has far from come crashing to a halt.
    ... so why Metro as unchangeable default

    I am all for adding `another method of input to the mix`

    ... but why Metro as unchangeable default

    I am not bagging Metro as such, I am not anti-microsoft )although I am a daily linux user) all it would take to shut me up is an option for Desktop mode as default (perhaps it already exists I just cant see it)

    thats it.. a traditional start menu I still think is daft to not include as an option but thats not the end of the world , in my gnome-shell or unity I use cairo-dock since there is no default menu there either.

    Actually Unity/Gnome 3 is a good case in point, Gnome went all touchy-feely on us, Ubuntu devs (and Mr.Torvalds himself) hated it and instead recreated their own ...even worse version of it.

    Most everyone I know who are regular linux users have dropped back to Gnome2 distros or converted to Xface/KDE/Some Other manager, linux users love choice, and are voting with their mouses. Luckily for me if I don't like the desktop environment I can simply install an alternative , Windows users will not have this option.

    under the hood Windows 8 is very Windows 7 without a start menu so why not give a 'traditional' interface option ?
    resistance is...

    MVC is the current buzz in web application architectures. It comes from event-driven desktop application design and doesn't fit into web application design very well. But luckily nobody really knows what MVC means, so we can call our presentation layer separation mechanism MVC and move on. (Rasmus Lerdorf)

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepages View Post
    ... so why Metro as unchangeable default ?
    Because, as I alluded to in my earlier post, Metro isn't just a Windows 8 design choice - it's a paradigm shift. Windows 8 is a clear attempt to blur the lines between your traditional PC and your mobile PC and provide a ubiquitous experience across all platforms.

    I understand that users who don't like change (and I would probably count myself among them) are going to be uncomfortable initially. But, just like GUI was in its day, this is an important change and to not be moving forward at this point is very much moving backward.

    If users simply had the ability to turn it off it wouldn't be a very effective shift, would it? People are naturally resistant to change and love to stick with what they know. I can probably count on one hand the amount of bold design choices, that turned out to be effective in the end, which were initially berated by the user base (leers at Facebook).
    Last edited by ShaneC; 07-11-2012 at 04:15 AM.
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  3. #33
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    I do understand what you are saying and I get what Microsoft are trying to do, but I think if you blur the line between a pussycat and a tiger you could get hurt, same family different habits.

    It looks to me like Microsoft have created a (very nice) hammer but now everything looks like a nail.

    in other words is that I don't think you can blur the line that much and get away with it, I fully expect and look forward to one day (sooner rather than later please) this when I can put my next HTC/Samsung phone into my dock/KVM and start working away on a full size keyboard/mouse/monitor(s) but I do expect that the OS will be bright enough to realize that it is now a regular computer and adjust its interface to suit.

    I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all for computing/mobile computing, we will see and I may be wrong (I was wrong once before in 1982 I think ) but I do think its a massive gamble for microsoft... actually I think its a no-brainer of a balls up but who knows
    resistance is...

    MVC is the current buzz in web application architectures. It comes from event-driven desktop application design and doesn't fit into web application design very well. But luckily nobody really knows what MVC means, so we can call our presentation layer separation mechanism MVC and move on. (Rasmus Lerdorf)

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepages View Post
    It looks to me like Microsoft have created a (very nice) hammer but now everything looks like a nail. in other words is that I don't think you can blur the line that much and get away with it...
    I'm just not getting the hammer analogy. You're not forced to live in Metro. If you want to avoid Metro entirely you can, the only thing that has changed for you is the Start Menu (and some UI tweaks like networking), which you are in a tiny fraction of the time you're on your computer.

    when I can put my next HTC/Samsung phone into my dock/KVM and start working away on a full size keyboard/mouse/monitor(s) but I do expect that the OS will be bright enough to realize that it is now a regular computer and adjust its interface to suit.
    The misunderstanding here, I think, is the assumption that Metro is only for mobile. It isn't. I've seen a lot of individuals who like it on their traditional desktops. It's simple, it's immersive. Not every PC user is an epic multitasker with e-mail, chat, Netflix, and Starcraft all up at the same time.

    If you're the former user, Metro mode is there for you on all your devices. If you're the latter then, to reiterate my last point, you're not forced to live in Metro.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneC
    I'm just not getting the hammer analogy. You're not forced to live in Metro. If you want to avoid Metro entirely you can,......
    but you are taken there by default, and can quite easily end up back in there accidentally, and you have to use the childish Charm screens, lol and Metro shows EVERYTHING installed on my computer event manager, ODBC data sources

    + there are other problems (device manager, windows '.', left hand preview tabs which mostly don't actually work (at least not for me))as well though its not fair to start on them with a release-candidate which is still very beta-ish.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneC
    The misunderstanding here, I think, is the assumption that Metro is only for mobile.
    no totally the opposite, no misunderstanding at all , the misunderstanding is that 95% of windows 8 users will NOT be using a mobile nor a touch screen for some while to come unless Windows Phone can outdo android/ios, even then windows 8 will be pushed onto millions of machines that have no touch or are impractical for touch (standard 23+inch screens)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneC
    It isn't. I've seen a lot of individuals who like it on their traditional desktops. It's simple, it's immersive. Not every PC user is an epic multitasker with e-mail, chat, Netflix, and Starcraft all up at the same time.
    immersive I saw that coined somewhere else from microsoft, its (IMO) a cop-out, one can choose to be immersed in 1 application at any time on any OS simply by clicking fullscreen.

    no not everyone is a multi-tasker in the true sense and there are times when metro style apps will be useful and fun like my HTC mobile is on android, but for everyday computing the vast majority of day to day at work users will not be using Metro & I think you know that ... if it was not default then that would not really be an issue.

    Anyway we are going to have to agree to disagree here methinks ! all I can say in my wrap up is as before, it feels like 2 operating systems glued together, badly, the edges don't quite fit, one half is interesting but not much use in my everyday tasks and the other if fine, albeit missing a few bits which could quite easily been left in without causing anyone any pain.Also whenever I pick it up, the broken side is always facing me... every time
    resistance is...

    MVC is the current buzz in web application architectures. It comes from event-driven desktop application design and doesn't fit into web application design very well. But luckily nobody really knows what MVC means, so we can call our presentation layer separation mechanism MVC and move on. (Rasmus Lerdorf)

  6. #36
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    I just saw/used the Win8 UI today on a friends tablet- my first thought is figure out how to pin something to the task bar in DT mode- make a folder "Virtual TaskBar" and then pin it there- then dump every single program shortcut, control panel shortcut, etc I need in there and re-create the task bar

    not that that is practical- but my opinion on that being my first thought is that they have seriously taken a few steps back.. i think they should have kept the taskbar in DT mode and simply made it so you could flip to metro...
    another thing i think they screwed up is the windows search... that is sooooooo powerful- I use it all the time on Win7. It is still there, but not intuitive- and not easy to use... and if you are in DT mode it is even harder to 'flip to it' quickly...
    I think of all the uses that I would lose if that went away... often I just windowskey+ :
    cmd; remo + enter; sql + enter; vis + (enter 2010, down enter 2008, down down enter sourcesafe); core + enter; wire + enter; bey + enter;
    I also could not figure out for the life of me how to right-click something on the "taskbar"... the regular rightclick action just prompts to move the square. I didn't try it, but I am guessing that it is beyond hidden how to runas... something as well.

    I will say i think it looks "fun"... I think it has a great look if you like the HTC and that whole layout- but I really think they did not think of the entire development community when they created this- or moreover any IT prof.

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepages View Post
    well played enough now to be sure I hate it , it is quite fast for sure but thats about it, installed photoshop on it since thats the only reason I ever use windows (me not a gamer) and runs nice and crisp even in VM with 2 and a bit GB + 2 cores.

    but its still stupid.

    and I know the metro interface looks cool on page one... but the metro-style components and dialogs that you get when in desktop mode just look childish when on the real desktop, like your five year old just started playing with MSPaint or something

    looking forward to windows 9

    I agree entirely. I'd have all my computers running on Debian if it weren't for MS Word (I HAVE to HAVE it for school.) I do also enjoy Photoshop. (I'm not a gamer either.)

    I was reading comparisons of Win 7 and Win 8. They tested a machine very similar too mine, and all I got out of the article was Win 8 being faster. Which is a good thing, but at what cost?

    Win 8 booted in around 36.8 seconds, and 7 in around 56.whatever. Even if that is a very noticeable difference having to switch from Metro to Desktop.. And the desktop being poorly set up just makes me think failure.

    I know all those people who like their pretty GUIs might like it.. But to me it's all just bloat and bog.

  8. #38
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    hmmm, I think I am slowly getting it ... I don't mean liking windows 8 but getting what microsoft are up to.

    Apps, apparently they make 30% of each app download, and if you want to write apps you have to use their IDE (I think, don't quote me) and that is not free either.

    I guess thats why Metro is default and why its locked as default, the lack of a start menu? just a kick whilst you are down

    even at the server end microsoft are doing weird stuff, exchange will no longer have `shared folders` in the classic sense, and sorry but thats the one and only reason to use exchange rather than any other IMAP system, with that essentially gone one could replace exchange with any flavour of postfix/courier/etc and not suffer.... and then for the vast majority of non-enterprise users ... do you really need active directory ? really ? most of my clients don't, the only reason they have a windows server is exchange.

    Really the linux community should be kicking themselves with pointy boots right now, short of MINT all the current high flyers are broken with gnome-shell or bad clones (unity) else some OEMs might have had another bash at the linux desktop, as it is they are mostly flirting with alternative android `fun-boots`
    resistance is...

    MVC is the current buzz in web application architectures. It comes from event-driven desktop application design and doesn't fit into web application design very well. But luckily nobody really knows what MVC means, so we can call our presentation layer separation mechanism MVC and move on. (Rasmus Lerdorf)

  9. #39
    Regular Coder stevenmw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepages View Post
    hmmm, I think I am slowly getting it ... I don't mean liking windows 8 but getting what microsoft are up to.

    Apps, apparently they make 30% of each app download, and if you want to write apps you have to use their IDE (I think, don't quote me) and that is not free either.

    I guess thats why Metro is default and why its locked as default, the lack of a start menu? just a kick whilst you are down

    even at the server end microsoft are doing weird stuff, exchange will no longer have `shared folders` in the classic sense, and sorry but thats the one and only reason to use exchange rather than any other IMAP system, with that essentially gone one could replace exchange with any flavour of postfix/courier/etc and not suffer.... and then for the vast majority of non-enterprise users ... do you really need active directory ? really ? most of my clients don't, the only reason they have a windows server is exchange.

    Really the linux community should be kicking themselves with pointy boots right now, short of MINT all the current high flyers are broken with gnome-shell or bad clones (unity) else some OEMs might have had another bash at the linux desktop, as it is they are mostly flirting with alternative android `fun-boots`

    Don't even get me started on the Unity GUI. Just another pretty GUI for all the hipsters.. Just like Mac..

  10. #40
    Regular Coder stevenmw's Avatar
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    I installed Win 8 on my VM. I do not like the set up, or the look so far. It is fast..

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    I am not very like this mode of windows 8, it is better suited for tablet computer.

  12. #42
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    Do be fair about the fisher price comment with XP, you could disable that and go to a window 200'ish look with it which actually saved a lot of resources...

    I changed to Linux around 2007, and I have to say do prefer the if you don't like the UI, just choose different one aspect... for example a lot of people hated Unity from Ubuntu (which I honestly like)... so they simply just opened the Software center and clicked to install XFCE or KDE or whatever... and for them... problem solved...

    Who knows Microsoft might allow this one day.... and call it their innovation like they did with the UAC concept... which just seems a steal from sudo...

    And did anyone much ever use Vista, I think most people just stuck with XP and then upgraded to 7 when it came out, though XP still has a huge userbase

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepages View Post
    to be fair, that wont be hard I think there are only abut 42 Vista users left

    + I think its only quite recently that Win7 got the best of XP as the most used windows and I read 2 conflicting reports recently ... (cant find them when I need them of course) 1 said XP , the other said 7 , so I think its only recently tipping which when you think abut how long XP has been out there is quite amazing.

    I do remember the fuss when XP came out though it was slammed as well, I actually liked it from the get-go (I think, its been a long time and my memory ain't what it used to be) but most of the problems were as you say driver/application support based which will probably not be the case with 8.
    Your apps and devices will still work under windows 8 .. you just might not be able to find them~!@

    Still using 8 here in the VM which I read everywhere is not a fair way to judge it, its still fast but still very annoying especially without touch, which is daft cos when I am in there using photoshop or VCC etc the last thing I want is touch...
    If I want to test in IE I have to be careful that I get the 'real' IE and not the app since with the app I cant see anything else I am doing, multi-tasking-a-no-no.
    Sorry but its stupid, on my Android phone it makes sense since I have 4 inches or so to play with, on my dual head 27+23 its laughable.

    I really think this could go oh so very wrong for microsoft, Metro might make Bob and ME and Vista UAC look like a mere flesh wound next to this.
    Or I could just to too old and stuck in my ways (perfectly possible) , luckily however I still have my charm and good looks to get me through
    Proud to say I am one of the 42.

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  14. #44
    Super Moderator sage45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneC View Post
    Because, as I alluded to in my earlier post, Metro isn't just a Windows 8 design choice - it's a paradigm shift. Windows 8 is a clear attempt to blur the lines between your traditional PC and your mobile PC and provide a ubiquitous experience across all platforms.

    I understand that users who don't like change (and I would probably count myself among them) are going to be uncomfortable initially. But, just like GUI was in its day, this is an important change and to not be moving forward at this point is very much moving backward.

    If users simply had the ability to turn it off it wouldn't be a very effective shift, would it? People are naturally resistant to change and love to stick with what they know. I can probably count on one hand the amount of bold design choices, that turned out to be effective in the end, which were initially berated by the user base (leers at Facebook).
    True that it is a paradigm shift, however, I liken it to trying to blur the lines between flying a plane and driving a car.

    In prepration for the day when we will all be driving flying cars all car manufacturers have agreed to release cars without the standard user interface constructs (steering wheel, brake pedal, accelerator, and gear shifter). Instead you will use a standard airplane yoke controller for steering with height control surfaces to be added at a later date. Your acceleration and deceleration will be controlled by a seperate sidestick control.

    Signed,

    Detroit
    Plain and simple, the Windows 8 interface is more for a niche crowd and does not take user productivity and familiarity with a product seriously.

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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sage45 View Post
    In prepration for the day when we will all be driving flying cars all car manufacturers have agreed to release cars without the standard user interface constructs (steering wheel, brake pedal, accelerator, and gear shifter). Instead you will use a standard airplane yoke controller for steering with height control surfaces to be added at a later date. Your acceleration and deceleration will be controlled by a seperate sidestick control.

    Signed,

    Detroit
    spot on.

    better news though .. we may at last see steam games ported to linux natively,
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07...ell_windows_8/

    though of course we have heard that promised before without delivery.

    seriously the more I read the worse it gets for windows 8 and the more it appears that MS really don't care, they are aware that enterprise can not drop windows overnight and pinning their hopes that forcing metro down everyones throat will start `forcing/encouraging` people to move to metro based tablets and phones, where they seem to think the real money is (+ the 30% of app sales of course).

    Perhaps they can and will, but would have been nice to actually have finished windows 8 first, seriously, there are dialogs etc in windows 8 that are near impossible to use via touch.. even NEW dialogs in office 2013... you would have thought someone could have told the office devs about windows 8 hey ?
    resistance is...

    MVC is the current buzz in web application architectures. It comes from event-driven desktop application design and doesn't fit into web application design very well. But luckily nobody really knows what MVC means, so we can call our presentation layer separation mechanism MVC and move on. (Rasmus Lerdorf)


 
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